Did you actually look further into my suggestion to check that the engagement of the starter pinion is correctly synchronized so that it doesn’t start spinning until fully in mesh with the ring gear? A spinning gear trying to mesh with a stationary one will never work properly. You seemed to just ignore this comment previously
I fitted a new standard 110 tooth starter ring to my flywheel when i changed my gearbox and fitted a Powerlite RAC472MS Hi-Torque starter and it engages quietly and works perfectly.
As far as I am concerned there is no need to fit anything other than a standard 110 tooth ring gear when fitting a Hi-Torque starter motor. At least that goes for the Powerlite unit, other makes may of course differ.
Also the chamfer on the ring gear makes no difference to the working of the Powerlite unit if fitted either way around.
I bought the 110tooth replacement starter ring gear from SJS.
Alan.
Why was the ring gear welded to the flywheel? I have never seen that before or am I missing something
cheers
Mark
ps stay well clear of the Brise starters
The starter ring should not be welded on at all to the flywheel
The starter ring should be heated and shrunk on to the flywheel.
After cutting the old ring carefully off I heated mine gently, not too hot, with an acetylene torch and it just dropped on. I then left it for a couple of hours to cool and all was good.
I have fitted literally hundreds of them of various makes over the years this way !
I have heard of people putting them in the oven to heat them up but not tried this myself. I would have thought it questionable if you could get the oven hot enough but who knows.
Alan.
Alan,
I also think that the ring gear should not be welded to the flywheel. Steel ring gear, cast iron flywheel, but that’s just what I found on my engine when I took it apart. I have bought a couple of Ford Zetec flywheels from scrap yards, and found no chamfer on the ring gear, and negligible wear.
Using a domestic oven was hot enough to shrink the ring gear onto the flywheel. The oven has a “Pyrolitic” self cleaning function, I don’t know how hot it gets.
On the few flywheels I have worked on I have not found it necessary to cut the ring gear off. On the basis of I have nothing to loose, I put the flywheel on the floor, and with a big drift and lump hammer worked my way around the ring gear until it came off.
Hope this is of interest,
Richard Hawkins
The easiest way to cut/remove a starter ring from a flywheel I find is to:-
First, drill a small hole, say 5mm or so, in the side of the starter ring and across the well of a tooth on the ring but being careful not to let the hole drill into the actual flywheel itself.
Then with the flywheel/starter ring assembly upright and standing on a hard surface usually a single hard blow from a hammer and cold chisel in the well of the drilled tooth the starter ring will just split and drop off the flywheel.
Alan.
A proper pre-engaged flywheel ring gear shouldn’t need a chamfer on any side of the teeth as the starter pinion isn’t spinning when it is engaged / presented to the flywheel - the pinion itself should have a sufficient shape on it to allow it to enter mesh with the unchamfered teeth of the ring gear. Original Ford pre-engaged ring gears have no chamfer at all.
I have a genuine Ford pre-engaged starter that works with an inertia 110 tooth flywheel and it enters the side of the ring gear where there are no chamfered teeth present. Works perfectly.
This was a starter motor offered on Ford export cars and are extremely hard to find - mines the only one I’ve ever seen “in person” and I’ve not seen any new or 2nd hand ones advertised for sale anywhere!
@2cams: I am sorry not to have responded sooner to your advice. I did a ‚test‘ the brise, once I removed it. To my eye the pinion pushed out before it rotated, is there a proper test to perform outside the car?
The welded flywheel was on my car when I bought it from Canada. I removed it when switching to the 5 speed and the brise. The brise starter was noisy from the start, but it worked well. I will try to switch back to an pre engaged starter when the engine will be out this winter. However, I am confused about the different statements regarding the ‚right‘ ring gear: Most posts here say that the standard ring needs not to be replaced. I talked to 3 different guys here in Germany that are running the Brise and other pre engaged starters on their race Elans, Cortina and twink single seaters. All of them are building their cars themselves. All claim that the pre engaged starter won‘t work with the standard gear, or will only last for a very limited time. I know from my car the the brise has chewed the gears from the front, but the Lucas still works very smoothly from the back??
Most of the after market pre-engage starters have design deficiencies causing engagement problems and wear. This may be incorrect tooth pitch circle diameter or mounting location or inadequate throw of the pinion or excessive flexibility of the adapter or other possibilities. I personally would use none of them without a full engineering analysis and if the supplier cannot provide it go elsewhere if you cant do it yourself.
In general a lead in on the flywheel is not needed as the starter pinion has a lead in but having a lead in on both does help assuming the pinion fully engages prior to starting to turn which may not be the case.
Like promotor i use an orginal Bosch preengage starter used on Escorts but with the Lotus style 9 tooth piniojnhere in Australia. I have used it wiith the flywheel chamfer facing the pinion or opposite without issues either way.
cheers
Rohan
Hi Rohan,
Could you specify the Bosch pre-engaged starter you use?
Many thanks
Peter
This is the type of starter.
oldtimer-shop.eu/product/ford-c … 9M0ZrCyTNr
It was discussed recently in another post. It is a 3 bolt mounting but you just use the 2 bolts that fit the bell housing. The third bolt hole lug can be cut off for extra clearance if needed. I got a 9 tooth pinion from Bosch to fit it. I dont know if they are still available but I suspect it would work with the 10 tooth version also.
cheers
Rohan
Many thanks Rohan
Agree it would be a difficult thing to observe. Perhaps you could try painting one tooth of the pinion gear and videoing what is happening with the pinion as it is pushed forward during engagement. By replaying the video in slow motion you could then observe any rotation of the marked tooth as the pinion is pushed forward. If you knew the frame rate of the video you might even be able to estimate the speed of rotation. To my eye your ring gear damage is mainly down to gears grinding together because of engagement being attempted at unsynchronised rotation speeds rather than incorrect engagement depth or mis matched tooth profiles.
The reason the ring gear is welded on is that the factory starter is incorrect for the ring gear fitment!
The ring gear is pressed on from the nearside of the ring gear,as the Fords used a preengaged starter.
Lotus no doubt saved 49P by using an inertial starter that comes from the wrong side of the flywheel.
When I first took my engine apart circa 1986, the ring gear was already 30 to 50 thou away from the shoulder.
I pinned it to the ring gear, some weld it.
Hi there.
The reason the Elan and Plus 2 have an inertia starter is that a pre-engaged one from that period wouldn’t fit. The Twin Cam Europa did have a pre-engaged starter but that has a lot space around around the back of the engine.
Personally I cant understand why there seems such a need to change from the standard Lucas inertia starter. That’s what’s on my Plus 2 and it’s 100% reliable. I know there are a lot of dodgy rebuilt units out there, but if they’re in good condition or rebuilt properly then they’re fine
Regards
Andy
The inertia starter when you think of how it works is actually a very clever and simple design. More so in fact than a pre engaged started. Whoever originally came up with the idea to use the pinion and it’s inertia together with a screw thread to enable it to engage was a very clever and lateral thinker. A pre engaged starter on the other hand just engages according to conventional logic.
'‘Personally I cant understand why there seems such a need to change from the standard Lucas inertia starter’
The reason people like to change Andy is because of some, or all of the folllowing reasons:
They have bad earths on their car.
Their engine is not set up correctly, ie carbs, timing etc.
They are trying to start the car with a duff battery.
Their inertia starter is duff and or the pinion has beem mashed up.
They have the incorrect pinion fitted.
Their solenoid is duff.
A host of other problems that I cannot think of right now.
As both you and I know Andy, if all the above are in good order, the good old inertia starter is just fine and I for one shall continue to use.
Leslie
The reasons for me
Lighter weight
Parts availability ( cant get Lucas stuff here )
I would guess it draws less amps
Hi Leslie
+1
I can get all the parts to service my starter ,solenoid, bendix. Cannot see why I should spend lots cash on something that seems to give trouble.
Just my opinion
John
hey will, i believe philipp was saying the ring gear meant for a pre-engaged starter like the brise is different from a inertia type. its got the same tooth count, same diameter, but the gear’s placement in relation to the starter is diff. not sure if its just for brise or for all pre-engaged starters tho, could be both. hope that clears it up a bit, cheers mate.