Should we as owners try to set sensible +2 Prices

Plus 2 Discussions
1

A regular topic on the Forum is “what’s it worth”
Well, I for one think the subject is worth investigating further.

To start with the grade/categories need to be established. How about

  1. Basket Case but 100% complete and original
    A Twin Cam with ancilliaries inc carbs must be worth £4000 in any condition, a 4 speed gbox and Diff £500, a set of decent steel wheels with spinners £400, rear calipers £100. Making a total of £5000. A 5 speed gearbox is worth say £500
    Trim, glass, seats, doors, bonnet, boot, drive shafts, instruments, steering wheel, original jack etc, Registration document, no doubt you can think of other useful items.

The bottom line is a Plus 2 has a minimum value of at least £6500.

Next category would be :
2) Drivable just about, complete and original no MOT test certificate

  1. Drivable, ‘on the road’ legal car everything working, but a tired paint, or tired engine, or tired chassis

  2. Original good, smart paint, decent chassis, tidy interior, recent bills for engine work and chassis components. Reliable and useable

  3. Original Freshly overhauled and painted with photo evidence

What do other Owners of Plus 2 think ??
What prices do you think the categories should be ??
Kevin Whittle

2

I think generally you have your categories about right… :smiley: .
Values and prices are another thing though and a car is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. In other words it is subjective. One person may like a sunroof and value it and another may think it detracts from its value and so on with a particular cars various features.

However on a separate point a +2 no longer needs an MOT so why go through the burden of having one? It is now classed as a vintage vehicle and is exempt from an MOT.

Alan.

3

Re MoTs. Pretty obvious why a seller should get one. It provides some piece of mind to a buyer (even if illusory, as it was in the case of my car when I bought it). Other than that, a pretty worthless piece of paper.

4

I would suggest that if a buyer needs an MOT certificate to convince himself of a +2’s condition and that a certain car is for him then he shouldn’t be buying it!
Mine definitely won’t be having an MOT now that the DVLA have said that it is exempt. :smiley:

Alan.

5

There is a company called Classic Data, I think its German but not sure.
They have a very good and accepted description of conditions, from 1 (perfect) to 5 (basket case/wreck)
Somewhere I have also the pictures that illustrate their description, but not able to find it.
from this page:
classic-data.de/ueber-class … andsnoten/
translated:

Condition 1
Perfect condition. No defects, damages or signs of use on the technology and the optics. Completely and perfectly restored top-class vehicle. Like new (or better*). Very rare.

A vehicle that one approaches enthusiastically and where no defects are found even after close inspection. The basis for the evaluation in condition grade 1 is the assumed condition at first delivery, i.e. the former new car condition of the respective manufacturer.

(I would add that a car that is driven for some miles passes inmediately from “1” to “1-”)

Condition 2

Good condition. Free of defects, but with slight (!) traces of use. Either rare, good unrestored original condition or professionally restored. Technically and optically perfect with slight signs of wear.

A vehicle which is enthusiastically approached, but on closer inspection shows slight signs of use. These slight signs of use should be reflected in the comprehensible, low overall mileage or mileage after restoration. The degree of wear and tear of the technology is correspondingly low.

Condition 3

Used condition. Vehicles without major technical and optical defects, fully roadworthy and roadworthy. No rusting through. No immediate work necessary.

A vehicle you approach and on closer inspection you will easily see traces of use and various minor defects. The traces of use and defects should be reflected in the comprehensible total mileage or mileage after a restoration. The degree of wear and tear of the technology is corresponding to this.

Condition 4

Used condition. Only limited roadworthiness. Immediate work for successful acceptance to MOT is necessary. Light to medium rusting through. Vehicle complete, in individual assembly groups but not necessarily undamaged.

A vehicle that is approached and where various defects are visible from a distance. A closer inspection shows clear signs of wear

Condition 5

Condition in need of restoration. Vehicles in a defective, unroadworthy overall condition. Extensive work required in all assemblies. Vehicle not necessarily complete.

A vehicle in which even the layman immediately recognizes clear defects and/or missing parts. Could also be used as a parts carrier.

6

My +2 is valued by Alan Morgan in the mid thirties as a starter for 10. Jim

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7

very nice too !
Kevin

8

I narrowly missed out on a Weber head twin cam engine on eBay about 2 months ago. It sold for around £2100. Looked in good condition, no ancillaries. I think someone had kept it as a spare
It’s pretty rare that they come up with bids only, which I think gives a true value. Usually advertised as a fixed price much higher.
On the other hand, if someone offered me some rear calipers for £100 I’d bite their hand off.

9

here in N America. All elans are much cheaper.
I purchased mine, in what I would consider condition #2 for what would be £2,500
And about the same for my baby, which required alot.

I pay attention to other marques, both sides of the atlantic. Until you get into very high dollar cars, Europe is always higher in price.

For an elan, or +2. They are undervalued by about 15-20,000%
More based on any american car/truck value, also on how many of the marques remain.

There was a thread here a while back, about building an elan from scratch.

Are the molds still around for the +2

10

It’s still possible to buy a new +2 body
Kevin

11

bringatrailer.com/listing/1971-datsun-240z-124/

If one of these can fetch $310,000

There were about 13,000 built per year. Far more than elans over the 12<> years
And, if anyone were to consider the fun factor of each.

12

I would agree that a 240Z is great fun to drive and very easy to work on having personally worked on a few in the past… But boy do they rust!!..Nothing disolves faster than an old Datsun, at least in the UK. I personally wouldn’t touch one with a barge pole for that reason alone!

Alan

13

If/when I buy another Plus 2 I want to pay as little as is I deem ‘reasonable’

If/when I sell another Plus 2 I want as much money for it as I deem reasonable.

But…the market will set the price - and whether we agree with where that price is - is almost irrelevant.

“Setting prices” is a bit like duct-taping jelly to a tree (much better idea than nailing jelly to a tree), it can be done but…

edited to add emphasis as needed.

14

Another thing to consider is the awareness of what a Plus 2 is. I never knew it even existed until I saw one at an auction (and then bought it). I consider myself a car enthusiast and like to think I know of most cars from Europe that they built a few thousand of after 1960. Everyone knows a E-Type, or a Esprit or a DB5. Same can’t be said for the Plus 2 in a lot of places.

15

You could have the worlds greatest authority on classic cars or Lotus place a value or price on a particular +2 but it means absolutely nothing! The market will always dictate the final price what you can in the real world sell or buy it for, this will always be its only real and true value.You can’t fix the market!
Trying to determine and obtain a price/value that reflects and is in line with your own personal satisfaction whether you are buying or selling is the real trick!

Alan.

16

Hi Kevin

Can I have 10 5 speed gearboxes for £500 each please

regards
Stuart

17

^ This. We can say what we want here, but it’s down to the buyer to decide on what he/she will pay. And if recent sold prices are anything to go by, the answer is “not much”. :frowning:

18

I would like to ask the question, at the end of the day does it really matter what your +2 is worth?
All hobbies cost money be they boating, flying or even fishing. If you lose a few quid along the way then so what!
It is the enjoyment that you got surely whilst owning the car and tinkering with it that really matters I would say.
Its a hobby …just accept that it is going to cost.
Too often the enjoyment in a hobby centres too much around price and how much it is worth.
Just enjoy!

Alan.

19

It matters when you sell, especially if you need the money to fund a new car.

20

Agree 100%

I’ve always bought on that assumption and have bought cars based on

  1. Competition history
  2. Technical merit and interest (eg. small capacity, high HP naturally aspirated engine)
  3. Rarity.
  4. Cheap price
  5. Don’t care much about paint and other superficialities so long as body is sound rust wise and crash wise.

I had virtually every Australian variant of the Mk1 Escort at one point, Mk1 1100, Mk1 1300, Mk1 1300 auto, Mk1 1300GT, MK1 Twin Cam, Mk1 1600GT Twin Cam. Obsessed!! Still am with these. They are the ultimate Meccano set. I also had a Chrysler Charger E48 (Rare Australian muscle car with factory triple webers), E3 BMW 3.0S, 1970 Honda 1300 coupe (air cooled 1,300cc 115HP and Sochiro Honda’s personal design) and a 1972 Honda Z360 micro car.

So far I’ve done reasonably well with these criteria especially with the sporting Escort variants.

I currently lust over the last of the series 3 XJ12 Jaguars. I’d just love one of those converted to manual transmission. Beautiful characterful design and very cheap at the moment. I almost bought one that had a broken timing chain tensioner for $800 a year or two ago before common sense got the better of me!! Just the sight of that massive engine and birds nest of wires and tubing when you lift the bonnet - Wow!

I do really like Lotus Elans too of course although It hasn’t quite got to the lust stage - not yet anyway, but it could still be possible!!